Kid questions

[kitchen_kink]

I know I've asked questions like this before, but I'm working it again.

Several of you I know have kids, and you show up at play parties, have multiple lovers, have careers, run triathlons, and do not seem (past the first year or so) to be dying a thousand deaths from lack of sleep and constant aggravation.

I would like to hear how you do it.

I'd also like to hear from kid-ambivalent people - whether you have kids or not. I'm about to hit 35, and I'm feeling that deadline. I'm so close to a choice, I can feel it!

Comments

That is a conversation

[sweetmmeblue.livejournal.com]

not a post. I'd be happy to have a conversation with you what our choices were and are.

Re: That is a conversation

[tisana.livejournal.com]

I think, maybe, not just a conversation--though yes, that'd be ideal--but possibly an entire blog community to itself: how to be a poly geek with kids, and still maintain a life.

I, too, wonder how people do it. I see them around, I just don't quite grok it.

[blondeamazon.livejournal.com]

I am also about to hit 35 and, aside from a few times when a relationship was as near perfect as one can get, I have never really wanted kids. I like them just fine as long as they are well behaved and I can send them back to their grown up or I can escape when they cease to entertain me. I never babysat as a job, but was often the mobile jungle gym at parties where there were kids because it was often more interesting to play with them then follow the grown up conversations. I find as I get older, though, I have less patience for kids but I think a lot of that has to do with lack of parenting. I agree with others, this is more of a conversation, but there is a peek into my view.

[plumtreeblossom.livejournal.com]

This.

[greendalek.livejournal.com]

I could probably wax philosophical for several hours on this subject if not more. Let's meet up in person sometime soon and I'll even buy/make you dinner or something. Lot of ground to cover --hell, I might have to buy/make you breakfast as well.

[regyt.livejournal.com]

I'm a bit disappointed by people not wanting to answer in comments. I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on this, too! Because frankly, what I'm doing is dying a thousand deaths. Though I suppose I am still in my first year, even though she's not.

[roozle.livejournal.com]

just to say I did try to put in an answer in comments :)

[mama-hogswatch.livejournal.com]

Well, you DO prioritize. You can have anything you want, but you can't have everything you want.

The first year or so of being a parent you WILL be sleep deprived. Ever noticed how people with very young children seem a little crazy? They are. Sleep dep. It's inevitable, as babies don't sleep for a long time at a stretch and no-one EVER listens to the "sleep when the baby sleeps" rule, because they want to have a LIFE.

You will NOT have as much time with your sweeties as you want. If people appear to, I promise you, they're letting something else slide that you don't know about. Even in group marriages that seem pretty harmonious, I assure you that there's a lot of discussion about whose job it is to be doing the kid wrangling.

greendalek and I appear to have wads of free time. This is because as a result of a poly divorce and the fact that we pretend to be nice people, we let each of our exes have our kid for a weekend a month. That's two weekends out of the month that we don't have any children in the house. In addition, the child that lives with us is a very self-sufficient teenager who can be trusted to follow through on things that he's "supposed" to do pretty well.

Also, we're pretty independent. We've been together 20 years and neither of us are really into the whole, "But I don't get enough TIIIMMMMEEEE with you" routine. If we were more joined at the hip than we are, there would be serious problems.

You wanna know what kind of time sink kids are? I quit my flippin' JOB and started a risky business so that I could spend more time with my son. (I'm pleased with the results, mind. His grades and personal development levels have skyrocketed). I'm not running to parties and all that smack. There WILL be an inequity between who gets to pursue interests more in a well-run home. Don't fool yourself about that.

[unknownrockstar.livejournal.com]

"You can have anything you want, but you can't have everything you want." what an awesome quote.

[lady-anemone.livejournal.com]

When I was a teenager I wanted kids, when I was in my twenties I was ambivalent, now I'm leaning closer to a childfree attitude. This in and of itself strikes me as an argument against my becoming a parent. Even if a few years from now I start to crave it, I worry that I will change my mind again after the kid or kids already exist, and that they will suffer for being less wanted by me.

But in general... I love my life. A lot. Too much to want such a drastic change. I don't think that either mrpet or myself would be willing to be the primary caregiver for a child, and I don't feel that having kids so that someone else can take care of them is very ethical.

[perseph12.livejournal.com]

Although I don't have children, I played a large part in raising my youngest sister, who is now 13 going on 25. Even though my time mostly goes to personal commitments, I still try to have an influence in both of my sisters' lives, and I am planning on having children of my own.

My parents were professional musicians for the entirety of my childhood, and they were able to continue to maintain their careers AND raise their children. They worked through most weekends and major holidays, but managed to drum up support from friends and family. My sisters and I still had plenty of parental input and were included whenever possible. Maddy didn't come along until Mum and Dad were 42 and 41, respectively. Other than being a wise-ass, she seems to be thriving ;).

I think a poly, geeky, active parent has a lot to offer a child or children. I first learned of non-monogamy through my mother, who advised it.

[perseph12.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I have a friend who was raised in a poly household. Her parents were open about their relationships, and her family unit contained a mother, a father, and another mother. She also gained two brothers from the experience, and they all shared one home. perfect_feline just happens to be one of the coolest people I know.

[roozle.livejournal.com]

Been there done that, maybe?

I have one suggestion: either seriously lower your housekeeping standards (no cholera? OKAY!) or get paid regular housecleaners.

Honestly. I'm serious. Something has to go, and cleaning house is the least fun and easiest to delegate or catch up on later. Noone ever said to their therapist "and my mom would NEVER match my socks before she put them in the drawer." You might wind up with a child who wears mismatched socks though. You do have to pick your battles.

Excellent, trustworthy childcare is a necessity and a blessing. This is costly and may feel difficult to justify if your external pursuits are not (or not yet) compensated in money, but if you try to do all your external pursuits with your spouse as the care provider, that leaves not enough time for spouse to do anything but work and kid care and that way lies resentment. In my experience.

When my children were small, my lovers put up with lots of childcare and family time in date nights, or they didn't see me. That's how it was. Date nights were dinner at home and putting kids to bed and *then* grownup time. As the kids got older this got to be less of a necessity.

Also, I will give you the words of advice I got from my mom when she heard I was planning to go back to work after Jacob was born.
Me: "we have it all worked out. I'll do 50% and Scott will do 50%
Mom: "that will never work"
Me: *bristles, feels the no support*
Mom: "If you do 100% and Scott does 100%, the ends will meet in the middle. Most of the time."

Alright, that's all I gotta say for now. It IS more of a conversation than a question.

[joyeous.livejournal.com]

I'm not poly nor planning on having children (yet), but I have to say I LOVE that conversation with your mother. :-) That holds true for so many things in life.

[entrope.livejournal.com]

When my children were small, my lovers put up with lots of childcare and family time in date nights, or they didn't see me. That's how it was. Date nights were dinner at home and putting kids to bed and *then* grownup time. As the kids got older this got to be less of a necessity.


Arrrrrrggggghhhhhhh, yes. Totally.

[moominmolly.livejournal.com]

I love the "no cholera? OKAY!" because, well, yeah. :)

I will echo this, and what mama_hogswatch said. Something has to go. Probably lots of things. In my experience you don't have to give up any individual pursuit, but you do have to scale back, and some things will fall by the wayside. I don't watch movies anymore, and I play pool maybe twice a year if I'm lucky. My housekeeping is atrocious. I quit my job and took one that required fewer hours and less brainpower. My clothes aren't as cool as they once were, and I don't remember the last time I sewed a weird outfit for a party (i.e. no more last-minute sleeveless faux fur tailcoats). I never sleep past 8:30 AM without significant prior logistical arranging. Natalie's socks are never matched, and her outfits often get pulled out of the clean laundry pile rather than her drawers. My loved ones all say that they don't see me enough, and I STILL feel like I don't get enough sleep or spend enough time with my kid or do well enough at my job.

When my children were small, my lovers put up with lots of childcare and family time in date nights, or they didn't see me. That's how it was. Date nights were dinner at home and putting kids to bed and *then* grownup time. As the kids got older this got to be less of a necessity.

A thousand times this.

[lillibet.livejournal.com]

Things that make it possible to do what I want, even with a kid:

1) Just one kid. This, from what I can tell, makes a big difference.
2) A strong network of babysitters.
3) A partner. Not just financial support and an hour a day while you make dinner, but an actual partner who can deal just fine if you walk out the door.
4) Working at home, both (or more) of you.
5) Willingness to be selfish, to say what I want and demand that I be allowed the chance to get it, if I can figure out how.
6) A really great kid, who isn't afraid of other people, or especially clingy, well-adjusted, even-tempered, heavy-sleeping, etc.

I assume that everyone who makes it all work has their own set, which probably differ considerably. But that's mine.

Thanks for reminding me what a lucky person I am :)

[badlittlemonkey.livejournal.com]

This feels like way too open of a topic for me to go into here, but I would be more than willing to talk to you about it and answer any questions you've got as best I can! Just, y'know, not in the next couple of weeks, since I've got to get started on my own new round of sleep deprivation here soon. :)

[naiad1.livejournal.com]

Since I'm not likely to see you in person soon, I'll try to answer here. As others have noted, books could be, and presumably have, been written about this.

The short answer is I CAN'T do it. In order not to die a thousands deaths, I can't do everything in your list. But I wouldn't trade that for no kids, not even close :)

Background:
1. I was in a traditional monogamous marriage when I had kids.
2. We had no family or other easy baby-sitting available.
3. My first baby was twins. Who never slept. And cried all the time when they were awake.
4. I had always wanted kids.
5. I had baby 3 when my twins were 2.75 years old.

The first five years: I was chronically exhausted. I worked only 24 hrs/week. My marriage went rapidly downhill, not because of the kids, but the exhaustion didn't help. I had time for nothing but kids.

Then I added in some exercise once a week. And got a new job with more social people. And started going out after work now and then. And things started looking up.

Then I got divorced. As someone says above, the divorce actually gave me the free time I never had before. The kids are at their dad's about 1/3 of the time. Which is very different from having free time in the same house as the kids, because that simply doesn't happen (at least usually not for the mothers).

Now I work full-time and have teenagers who are quite independent and a life partner. I *still* don't have time to exercise or to pursue hobbies. And while I have lovers, I don't really have other boyfriends because I don't have time to nurture those relationships.

But my kids bring me tremendous joy. Totally trite, but totally true and totally worth it. No question. But, except for the first few years, I have easy kids. I'm grateful every day that my kids are healthy and, as teenagers, low-need.

My big recommendation is don't have more than 2. From what I've seen, two is not much harder than one (I wouldn't know, but I've observed other families); but 3 puts you over the edge. If nothing else, you run into issues of needing to be in three places at once with only two parents.

This was perhaps not what you wanted to hear, but honest :)

[artemisedge.livejournal.com]

As one who falls in the childless and ambivalent about it category, I can add a few odd thoughts, which I dare not call wisdom of any kind.

My own philosophy is that if I want kids, I'm going to wake up one morning and be ready. My life is pretty interesting as it is so far, so if that morning never comes, I'm already at peace with it.

The other is that, from what I can understand, all the planning in the world can only prepare you so much for the undertaking of motherhood. Things you think you'll hate are nothing or even a blessing, things you never thought would bother you send you to hide in the closet for a moment's peace. But it doesn't hurt to take a look at yourself, and think about what you are, and what you'll need, to be happy and wonderful as a mother. It makes me think of your post of not so long ago about the value of the work you do, and how you felt about it, and the struggle you were having being at peace with the traditional role you found yourself in. How will you emotionally react to being a caretaker of a little human being 24/7? What kind of support and resources do you KNOW you'll need to stay together? What happens when you look out the window one day and realize, "I haven't written a word in a year," - will you shrug it off and pick right back up, or would allowing that to happen send you into a depression?

Not that it has to be like that. A writer friend of mine, who has published books of poetry and a few novels, swears motherhood made her a better and more prolific writer, instead of eating away at her work, because when the moments became spare and precious, she found herself driven and motivated to get that page done before the Little One woke up. As she put it, "I wasted scads of time when I was single, because there was just so much of it later."

[sykotropic.livejournal.com]

All the same things that make poly, marriage, life work. Communication, honesty and flexibility.

You and your partner(s) who will raise the child(ren) will never know going in what it will take. All you can do is agree that you are willing to go for the ride together.

One of the conversations that may be helpful is "what do you think a 2 or 3 year old should consider 'normal'?" As in public displays of affection, kinky toys, use of cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, language. You won't have all the answers, but if you can have an idea as to whether you will care when your 3 year old pulls out the bull whip, corset and condoms to play dress up and water balloons you may be ahead of the game.

[surrealestate.livejournal.com]

I don't have kids, but my observation of others has been that there is nothing specific you have to give up, but you will prioritize. I can recall conversations where a parent would say tell me, "There is no way you can do Foo once you have kids," and I just sorta smiled and nodded, not wanting to get into it, because, hey, my brother and partner still do Foo, because that's what important to them. (The parent telling me it couldn't be done probably didn't care much about the stuff in question beforehand, either.)

I also know people who don't particularly want to give up any aspect of their fabulous lives, so they don't have kids and they stay happy. And I know people who seem to have a constant low-level frustration over the sacrifices they have to make, but almost nobody will ever actually admit to regret over their choice.

[yagagriswold.livejournal.com]

I don't think I'm ambivalent anymore, but if that's true, it is newly true.

In my 20s I thought "I don't want kids now. Maybe I will someday." In my early 30s, I thought "I'm still not sure I want kids now. I'm not sure if I'm going to, but I'm not willing to rule it out, either." About 7 years ago, a partner's insistence that he would never have kids was part of what broke us up.

Then, I met S. and before I knew what hit me, I had stopped thinking about my life in terms of "someday". I've realized that I have the life I want. When the idea of kids crosses my mind, I no longer feel that panicky "I have to decide soon!" feeling. I just think "No, I don't think I will."

No kids, plans change

[gentlescholar.livejournal.com]

I wanted a child. Badly. It didn't happen. Now I wouldn't want it to.

It would have been worth it. Now, it no longer is. I want my own life; if I had a child now, it would feel like dying without ever having lived.

Had I succeeded, I expected to just about completely give up my life and be the primary caregiver, while my partners supported us. That was my plan: the traditional model of one person completely dedicated to child-rearing, and the poly part would be my having multiple partners providing financial support and some moral support. I didn't expect anyone else to shoulder much of the childcare burden. I was going to pretty much do it all. I know that sounds like foolish hubris, but single parents do it, and mothers did it for uncounted centuries. I honestly thought I would do okay, and be okay with the sacrifice.

I'm no longer in a place where I am willing to make that sacrifice, and I won't ask it of anyone else, nor rely on it even if promised--because reality can shatter expectations and promises.

[preraphaelite.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking about it a lot probably for the past three years or so. I had always assumed that I'd have kids because that's just What You Do, right? I went from of course to I'm not sure about two years ago, and lately I have been sliding into I think I'm all set, thanks.

My recent(ish) realization has been that just because I love having kids in my life, this does not mean I need to have my own. It seems like the big shift into not wanting them so much, for me, was getting nieces. It was like baby methadone -- I have wild crazy love for the nieces (and now nephew too), and love to talk to them on the phone and visit them and see pictures of them and buy them presents. It feels like that might be plenty of kid for me.

I've been able to get a pretty good view of childrearing from my sister, and she *loves* being a mom. She is absolutely positively a happier, saner, more functional person since she's had kids. She leans on her husband a lot, but it seems to work out really well for them. But they are totally comfortable and happy with having the kids basically be their life.

The idea of not being able to just go out for dinner if I wanted seems a little horrifying to me. Right now I just can't imagine myself accepting such a huge limit on my freedom for eighteen years or so.

Part of me is still weirdly guilty about it -- I mean, my mom used to tell not to date anyone who didn't like kids or didn't like animals. I have still, semi-subconsciously, looked for guys I'm seeing to think cute kids are cute, on the street or in restaurants or whatever.

I'm 28, so I suppose I'll see how I feel as my life continues to change into my 30's. I've just started seeing the guy of my dreams, after all, so who knows?

[tobi.livejournal.com]

I am going through a lot of the same questions. I actually met with a girlfriend from high school yesterday to talk about it.

As far as my feelings on it, I posted about them last Spring. http://tobi.livejournal.com/1007124.html Obviously it's October and I'm not pregnant so we decided to wait a bit more. But the feelings are still there.

[starphire.livejournal.com]

Several people with the parenting experience to qualify themselves to answer have spoken of having to prioritize, to which I must add my nod of course. You can always make (some) time for what's most important to you.

Beyond that, the first thoughts that come to mind are: "What are your expectations (and those of your partner(s)?" and "What are your other resources like?" Examples of what I mean re: expectations would be things like: mindsets (self-fulfilling prophecies), general strength of personal needs for time/space vs. getting fulfillment from nurturing (hard to calibrate, likely you'd compare yourselves to others you know well), and willingness to defer, longer-term, some personal goals and pleasures, and - realistically - quality time with your co-parent.

Re: resources, I'm speaking mostly of what options you have to turn to for help and support - it could be money/time tradeoffs, your network (or lack) of child-friendly friends and family nearby who'll gladly help and/or trade, and your flexibility/openness to those possible options. For instance, if you're able & willing to adjust locations, jobs, income levels, social groups and so forth to make it work without losing your personal life, because you want kids that much, that's probably a good sign that it'll feel worth it (at least most of the time :).

But really, patience, inner strength, and a sense of humor and faith that it will all work out when things get hard are probably more valuable than any of those things. When you're in the moment and stressed out, these are things that help *right then*, whereas changing those other things isn't going to happen immediately if you realize you need them to.

I'd be inclined to say "past the first year or so" could be replaced with "until kids are spending significant fractions of their waking hours away from parents - day care, nanny, school, etc. So that could be anywhere from a few months to age 5 or later, depending on your inclinations and options. I'm sensing that was another way of saying "when I have decent chunks of regular free time again".

[moominmolly.livejournal.com]

patience, inner strength, and a sense of humor and faith that it will all work out when things get hard are probably more valuable than any of those things.

VERY well put. I hadn't realized until an almost offhanded comment that starphire made to me yesterday that these are now far and away my favorite qualities in myself, when I find them.

[starphire.livejournal.com]

Thank you!
I was picturing someone kind of like you when I wrote that, actually.

[regyt.livejournal.com]

Yeah.

This is why I think I make a terrible parent. I just keep failing on patience.

[mama-hogswatch.livejournal.com]

I'd be the last person in the world to encourage someone to have children that doesn't WANT them, but if that's the ONLY thing holding you back, don't sweat it. If you're willing to work on your character, your kids get that example and it's one of the best ones you can set.

OTOH, if that's one reason of many that you're not wanting to have kids, why, enjoy being childfree!