Grammar police wanted

[kitchen_kink]

"'The girls,' as the phalanx of secretaries here calls itself"

or

"'The girls,' as the phalanx of secretaries here call themselves"?

Comments

[much-ado.livejournal.com]

phalanx is a collective noun, employed in the singular; "of secretaries" is a modifying clause for "phalanx".

therefore, "the phalanx [...] calls itself", singular noun in agreement with singular pronoun (the modifying clause being irrelevant in the noun-pronoun agreement).

[beah.livejournal.com]

Right.

[veek.livejournal.com]

Thirded. As is usual in such cases, I'm having an annoyed-negative reaction to the incorrect version, so the commenter below who says it's pleasing is balanced out here. :)

[dda.livejournal.com]

Fourthed. :-)

[voiceandsalt.livejournal.com]

fifthed!

[woodwardiocom.livejournal.com]

The former is slightly more correct, though I find both acceptable.

Even better might be:

"The girls," as the members of the phalanx of secretaries here call themselves.

[lady-anemone.livejournal.com]

I agree.

[amadea.livejournal.com]

I think that loses something, though - the idea of a phalanx collectively calling itself something is really funny.

[perseph12.livejournal.com]

I think the second one sounds more pleasing, but the first is more "correct." I suppose it depends on the context.

[perseph12.livejournal.com]

Also, whenever a question like this is posed, I think of Patrick Stewart on Saturday Night Live:
"Salt 'n Pepa IS here."

Would Picard lie to you?

[wotw]

"'The girls,' as the secretaries here call themselves".

[mrf-arch.livejournal.com]

I'm with this one, or I would be, except that the image of a secretarial pool equipped with bronze shields, helmets and greaves, and carrying wickedly long spears, just appeals to me.

[dietrich.livejournal.com]

I think you and amadea win on this one; I'm trying to capture the image of these secretaries as some kind of Borgian unit. :)

[imvfd.livejournal.com]

Actually, either is fine, what changes is the aspect that gets focus. The first, you focus on phalanx as a unit. In the second, on phalanx as being made up of individual members. The choice here is what you (or whoever) wants the reader to get out of reading the sentence.

[cos]

Both are technically correct, but the second form catches the meaning more effectively. A phalanx of secretaries does not, as a unit, "call itself" something, usually. It's the members that do so. Don't get so hung up on grammar technicalities that you jettison meaning, because meaning is what people will hear when you say it to them. Unless you're specifically trying to focus on the image of the phalanx of secretaries acting as a unit and calling itself something, acting as a single unit, then avoid the first form.

[voiceandsalt.livejournal.com]

While I think that the singular verb is correct, the other comments make it clear that intuitions about this construction are shifting.

The problem is the mismatch between the grammatical or syntactic structure of the sentence, and the semantic or meaning-based structure.

In the syntax, a singular subject (the phalanx) takes an action via a singular verb (calls), satisfying the subject/verb agreement rule of English syntax. In the semantics of the sentence, however, there is some dissonance when a loose group (of secretaries) takes an action in complete unison. It's easier to accept it semantically if it's something like Congress, a tight-knit group that often takes actions in unison. (For example, "Congress gave itself a raise.") I don't personally sense the semantic dissonance very much, but apparently it's strong enough that it interferes with the regularity of the subject-verb agreement rule in the syntax.

[dietrich.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this! I love the grammar-geeking stuff.

As several folks noted above, the image is intended as comic. I think using the hyper-correct (that is, the syntactically correct) version will achieve this effect better - I *do*, in fact, want the image of the secretaries as this sort of Borg-like thing.

[weegoddess.livejournal.com]

i would say the former. ;-)

Today is 10 November (it's after midnight here); I can be officially among the first to wish you a happy birthday!!

;-D

[dietrich.livejournal.com]

Why thank you!