The hatred continues, er, continued.

[kitchen_kink]

More anti-Franceism, more hatred toward Muslims, more clueless protestors! Yay! I can never get enough!

So the sidewalk across the street from my work seems to be a popular spot for idiot protestors. Today it was a Jewish group, once again protesting against France. When I emerged from the building, they were yelling, "End the hate! End the hate!" Good idea, I thought. Then a woman handed me this leaflet. Watch carefully for the hidden message, kids!

***
France: Arrest the Arab Thugs

On the Sabbath afternoon of March 22, three French Jewish children were beaten by racist thugs.

The incident took place during a massive anti-war anti-America protest. Among the "peace" marchers were French Arabs who marched carrying large sticks and wearing keffiyas. They spotted a Jewish boy on a sidewalk and beat him. The Muslims then raced down a street leading away from the line of march, shouting 'there are Jews over there.' When they reached the door of the JCC (the Centre Benard Lazare), they beat two more fourteen-year-old Jewish boys arriving for a Sabbath youth group meeting.

The marauding Muslims actually shouted anti-Semitic verses from the Koran as they beat the Jewish boys. They were attempting to batter down the door of the Jewish Centre when police arrived.

No arrests have been made despite the presence of numerous witnesses and the existence of television film shot by a French news crew that filmed the entire incident.

This attack is far from isolated. There were four times as many violent racist attacks in France in 2002 as in 2001, a wave of violent assaults on Jews not seen in Europe since before WWII.

We demand that the French government arrest the Arab thugs who beat up Jewish children.

***
Now, I won't even go into the little dig at anti-war protestors and the implication that this war is just. But I did go up to the little crowd and address the people who seemed to be in charge.

"Excuse me," I said. "I just got handed this leaflet. Can I ask you something?

Sure I could, they said.

"This is terrible, of course, and of course these people should be arrested. But does it strike you as ironic at all that while you're over here chanting 'End the hate, end the hate,' your literature refers to 'Arab Thugs' and 'Marauding Muslims,' and implies that all Muslims are bad??" (I wanted to say, "implies racism toward Muslims and obliquely implicates that religion and thus all of its members, rather than a small group of zealots, in the current wave of violence toward Jews?" But I don't think that fast on my feet.)

To their credit, I got some mumbles, an agreement from an older gentleman who said he had objected to the language in the leaflets, and no angry response.

Still. Calling for the arrest of these racist scum while at the same time pointing out as many times as possible that these racist scum are Arabs, down to describing their dress and hypocritically pointing out the hatespeech in the Koran? (Have they looked at their book lately?)

"Reactionary tactics don't make for very effective protests," I called over my shoulder as I crossed the street.

I know I'm probably going to get skewered and roasted on a spit for this, but it just made me hopping mad.

Comments

[northbard.livejournal.com]

Skewering is available, but only in the deviant and naughty meaning.

Aside from that, I'da been right beside you, being a lot noisier and using the yid card on them. If they're still there again, please feel free to use the following points:

1) anti-semitic arabs is a ludicrous concept. All jews and arabs are semites.
2) There are no anti-semitic verses in the Koran. See above as to why that would be silly. There aren't even any anti-jewish verses in the Koran.
3) while anti-jewish sentiment in France is an issue, the Independent Race Relations news network reports that anti-muslim sentiment has grown more than anything else in the past year, accounting for over 30% of all REPORTED racially motivated assaults.
4) attacks on semites in general are up in France, and are, again and again, being perpetrated by white french males, not arabs.

[pax-industria.livejournal.com]

When I read this I wasn’t sure of the definition of Semite and anti-Semitism so I looked it up. Yay dictionary. This is what I found;

Main Entry: an·ti-Sem·i·tism
Pronunciation: "an-ti-'se-m&-"ti-z&m, "an-"tI-
Function: noun
Date: 1882
: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group
- an·ti-Se·mit·ic /-s&-'mi-tik/ adjective
- an·ti-Sem·ite /-'se-"mIt/ noun


Main Entry: 1Se·mit·ic
Pronunciation: s&-'mi-tik also -'me-
Function: adjective
Etymology: German semitisch, from Semit, Semite Semite, probably from New Latin Semita, from Late Latin Semitic Shem
Date: 1813
1 : of, relating to, or constituting a subfamily of the Afro-Asiatic language family that includes Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, and Amharic
2 : of, relating to, or characteristic of the Semites
3 : JEWISH

So I guess you could have anti-Semitic Arabs… since while all Arabs are Semites, to be anti-Semitic (apparently) is synonymous with being anti-Jewish. (shrug) These definitions came from Merriam-Webster online. Just thought it was interesting.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

[dietrich.livejournal.com]

Weird freakin' language we speak.

Hey by the way--are you someone I know in real life? I feel like you are, but I'm not sure who!

"anti-semitism"

[cos]

I don't disagree in general with the things she or you are saying, but this one bit really really bugs me:
anti-semitic arabs is a ludicrous concept. All jews and arabs are semites.

That statement itself is ludicrous. "Anti-semitism" is racism directed at Jews. There are plenty of anti-semitic Arabs. The thing that really bugs me about this statement is the number of times I've seen it repeated in anti-semitic publications, or in Arab countries where anti-semitism is rampant, where this statement is used as if it were a valid answer to charges of anti-semitism. It's a stupid semantic ploy that entirely misses the point. And it makes me angry.

Sure, the language has quirks. Arabs are semites, but anti-semitism is not anti-arabism or anti-islam. Nobody ever uses "anti-semitism" to refer to racism directed at Arabs (except perhaps to deliberately obfuscate, but I've never seen it). The definition of the term is clear and unambiguous.

You hit a nerve, and it's probably not your fault, but please drop that line of argument if you want people such as those protesters to take you seriously. You say something like that to them, and they will tune out and the rest of your message will be lost.

Re: "anti-semitism"

[northbard.livejournal.com]

I'm just gonna have to disagree a bit here.

Depending on which dictionary one uses, semite refers to either any descendant of the peoples of east-africa/middle east (ie, arabs, jews, etc..) or Jews specifically or, for some - both.

Re-defining a word simply because that's what people say it means sort of bugs me, and YES I include the word 'homo-phobe' as an annoying example of words that are taken to mean one thing when they actually mean another.

Etymologically, the word has a specific meaning that refers to all the middle-eastern peoples. Common usage has it as being ye jew. I'll accept that from outside the jewish community, but I feel (as someone who was raised in the jewish community, and still considers himself culturally jewish)that jews on the whole should be more precise in their own racial definitions. We, as jews, are semites. Arabs are semites. Using the term anti-semite to refer simply to jews seems..frankly..exclusionary and, weirdly, racist. It's as if we're claiming the whole darned geno-type to ourselves.

Re: "anti-semitism"

[cos]

"semite" refers to a broad category that includes Arabs. yes.
"anti-semite" is anti-Jewish racism.
Your feelings about how the language developed that way are not relevant to the point I was making. Like it or not, that is what the term means.

"homophobe" is a very good example for you to bring up. Because, whether you like it or not, "homophobia" does mean anti-homosexuality. It does not mean "fear of that which is like you", even though that's what etymology might otherwise suggest. I wouldn't have designed that meaning either, but there it is.

When people say "anti-semitic" they mean anti-Jewish, and you know perfectly well that is what they mean. If someone accuses an Arab of being anti-semitic and the response is "that's ludicrous, he's a semite", that is infuriating to those of us who have had to deal with far, far too many instances of that. It's pointless semantic quibbling. Whether you like the word or not is not the issue. The person who said it may not like the word either, but it's the term we have for the intended meaning, so they used it. If your answer is to pretend that what they said means something different than what both you and they know they meant, you're not going to be effective, just annoying.

Re: "anti-semitism"

[northbard.livejournal.com]

If someone accuses an Arab of being anti-semitic and the response is "that's ludicrous, he's a semite", that is infuriating to those of us who have had to deal with far, far too many instances of that.

As someone who has had their head kicked in on numerous occasions by christian jew-haters, skin-heads and random bigots, I believe I have earned the right to respond to particular terms in any way I see fit. I AM one of us that has dealt with it in too many instances. That said, I will agree that it is a semantic point, and probably not helpful given the situation.

But it is NOT a pointless one, IMO. The attempt to remind people that jews and arabs are all semites is an attempt (on my part) to recall and reinforce the fact that we share a common background and heritage, and that we are tied by more than a simple desire for a piece of land.

My feelings on the matter.

Re: "anti-semitism"

[cos]

In the context of this semantic debate, you might find this article interesting reading (both of you):
http://www.memri.org/bin/opener_latest.cgi?ID=IA13503

Re: "anti-semitism"

[dietrich.livejournal.com]

Take it to grammargasm, guys! Interesting discussion of connotation vs. denotation, and original meaning versus 'popular usage.' I happen to agree with both of you, but am feeling sad about divisiveness between two awesome Jews on my friends list...

[northbard.livejournal.com]

and I like how they can demand both support for bombing children and action against hitting children at the same time.

[cravinglestat.livejournal.com]

Dear Diedrich,

I saw what you posted earlier about 'Cipher' on grammargasm I believe and I just _loved_ it. I love with when people take words and work them, mold them, twist them to be poetic. I added you to my friends list. I hope you don't mind! *smiles*

[dietrich.livejournal.com]

Not at all! Nice userpic, by the way...not to mention the username. *grin*

Don't be surprised if I don't add you back right away, though--I've been limited my adds to people I know IRL lately.

[cravinglestat.livejournal.com]

Trust me, I completely understand. I'm avoiding my LJ actually other than to read things here and there because people are STRESSING me out! *laughs* I need some logical rational people for a bit and .. I admire your arguments. They're passionate, but you take the time to be logical. Since I'm just "reading" (even though this is two responses in a row now, hmm *grins*), I probably won't be giving you much reason to add me for a bit. Either way, I'll enjoy and comment when I have some to add.

*smiles* Thank you for the compliment on the userpic and the name btw. Lestat .. I love him.

neither skewering nor roasting

[alice-ayers.livejournal.com]

but, as northbard prefaced,anti-jewish sentiment in France is an issue....

Re: neither skewering nor roasting

[cos]

Yes. This is particularly relevant because France has a very solid history of anti-semitism in the modern world. It was the Dreyfus affair, in France, which led Theodor Herzl to write Der Judenstaat, the declaration of political Zionism that started the Zionist movement in western Europe and led to Israel being created. The spectacle of how a modern enlightened Democracy could erupt in hatred of Jews is what did it. And then in WWII, France's Vichy government and a large proportion of the French people cooperated with the Nazis, as a result of which the very large French Jewish community was sent off to the camps and mostly exterminated. This history isn't in the forefront of most Americans' minds, but many Jews do remember it, and the specter of anti-semitism rising again in France is particularly scary.

Re: neither skewering nor roasting

[dietrich.livejournal.com]

I only wish that if people were going to protest it, that they would do it without stoking the fires of hatred toward Muslims in return. It bugs me when protests, especially against hatred and violence, are founded in reciprocal hatred instead of compassion and logic.

Re: neither skewering nor roasting

[cos]

Yes. I wish the same thing. I liked your post.

Re: neither skewering nor roasting

[rezendi.livejournal.com]

...as is anti-arabic sentiment.

semitic racism

[sanghasong.livejournal.com]

you certainly handled it better than i would have done. and kudos for the level headed way you engage.

if only everybody's eyes were so open to hypocrisy.

Reactionary tactics

[crownedclown.livejournal.com]

It seems they didn't have enough of a problem with the language to change it, or reconsider their participation in the protest. But in my mind most protesters, either pro or anti war can be forgiven. They may not "know" what's going on, as we all often don't, given the accuracy of the information we can find. And should those "thugs", Arab or otherwise, be prosecuted under French law? Of course. I hope they are. But more interesting (to me) is that the protesters use the same types of inflammatory devices as our politicians and our media. Monkey see-monkey do. The central irony remains that you have to make a lot of noise to whip up support, or even get some attention, but by the time you got it, clear thinking is out the window. The war mongers like that, but the pro war anti France protesters here in the states might get sick at their stomach if they saw one of those individuals getting (what they believe to be) their just deserts. Even with the best of intentions we create some very serious beasts. We're a nation of marketing execs, from the protests to the Pentagon. What was the crucial question in the White House several months ago? How can we sell this war? And speaking of marketing execs (http://www.prospect.org/webfeatures/2003/04/tomasky-m-04-02.html), an interesting article on some of those in seats of influence, and how they move and shake us up. It makes you want to stick to fiction...the real kind.